General Discussion - why PoE is dying - Forum - Path of Exile (2024)

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innervation wrote:

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Simple2012 wrote:

The point is, the game is super complicated and it discourages new players from getting into the game.

There are a lot of games that discourage me from getting into them for all sorts of reasons. Should they all change to cater to what would get me in the door?

True. This argument is so weak. I can only imagine people like that trying to play something like Dwarf Fortress for the first time.

It's nothing different from those who whine about Souls games not having an easy mode.

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bauermayers wrote:

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innervation wrote:

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Simple2012 wrote:

The point is, the game is super complicated and it discourages new players from getting into the game.

There are a lot of games that discourage me from getting into them for all sorts of reasons. Should they all change to cater to what would get me in the door?

True. This argument is so weak. I can only imagine people like that trying to play something like Dwarf Fortress for the first time.

It's nothing different from those who whine about Souls games not having an easy mode.

Actually I agree also, and this is fine.

Unfortunately its GGG that acts stunned or shocked when things are not well recieved. Expedition was a great example of a total developer disconnect. You can go back and watch that Baeclast that CW was in. It's seriously stunning, on many levels, but the hubris is the most revealing.

So as long as GGG understands the swaths they are alienating, and it's a conscious desgin decison, then sure go ahead, desgin it as niche as you want. Don't then market to Shrouds Twitch channel for example, to the tune of a tens of thousands of dollars, and then wonder why people trying PoE feel a certain way. This has always confused me greatly. It's entirely self-inflicted as I've mentioned before.

Bascially, if you know the game is new player hostile, requires significant investment, and is generally not casual friendly why in God's name are you reaching out to those players, and more importantly, seemingly confused as to why they don't enjoy it or complain about things casuals would obviously complain about.

And the silent treatment is just about as mature and professional as you would expect it would be. Hell CW even said in the Baeclast I mentioned, that PoE isn't in a healthy place when he is hiding. I agree.

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innervation wrote:

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Simple2012 wrote:

The point is, the game is super complicated and it discourages new players from getting into the game.

There are a lot of games that discourage me from getting into them for all sorts of reasons. Should they all change to cater to what would get me in the door?

This!

Should PoE make a better job at introducing and teaching said complexity? Probably. But should they remove/alter/reduce the complexity just to get new people in the door? I don't think so. I feel there should be room for complex games on the grand gaming scene. Let PoE be one of those complex games. Why the hell not? Because you prefer a simpler, more casual and more easy-to-digest game?

Market the game for what it is, something I feel that they (GGG) are doing. I know some people in have disagreed to that just to be able to make a counterpoint or to easier critique PoE for wanting to remain what it is. I've always felt like GGG have been pretty open about the fact that PoE is a complex and hardcore game. Again, just let it be that. Too many game have gone down the road of altering their game to reach a wider audience, at the cost of their loyal, hardcore audience. Some would call that "success", at least if the new, wider audience is larger. Others would call it sellout. And both can be right.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Poe is free to download and has no initial cost to play. So many more people are trying it out that will not stick to the game. If you have to buy a game you putting the thought process of pros and cons before you buy it, while here you have not much to regret if you just try it out. GGGs marketing has been limited to gamers and gamers audiences only, not the multimillion in marketing that other companies throw to get a larger audience. No banners, no TV spots, no twitch ads, no corporate marketing.

I think GGG is interested to reach the people who didn't know much about Poe to get them to give it a try and there have been and there will be people who like the game and stick without GGG altering the game for a another playerbase.
The people who tried out a free game and decided it isn't for them didn't lose anything.

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Phrazz wrote:

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innervation wrote:

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Simple2012 wrote:

The point is, the game is super complicated and it discourages new players from getting into the game.

There are a lot of games that discourage me from getting into them for all sorts of reasons. Should they all change to cater to what would get me in the door?

This!

Should PoE make a better job at introducing and teaching said complexity? Probably. But should they remove/alter/reduce the complexity just to get new people in the door? I don't think so. I feel there should be room for complex games on the grand gaming scene. Let PoE be one of those complex games. Why the hell not? Because you prefer a simpler, more casual and more easy-to-digest game?

Market the game for what it is, something I feel that they (GGG) are doing. I know some people in have disagreed to that just to be able to make a counterpoint or to easier critique PoE for wanting to remain what it is

Again I think the point is being missed. And in some areas it's contradictory, trying to play to both sides of the arguement.

We agree PoE is complex game. It requires significant investment from a time standpoint, and can be difficult to understand, let alone master or be proficient. This is inherently not casual friendly. I get it, truly, I've lived it.

I think we also agree that PoE is pretty new player hostile, and doesn't do a great job at onboarding players. That said, I believe this is intentional right? To essentially weed folks out early? I believe CW has said something to this effect. I don't agree necessarily on the overall premise, that holding QoL & game information hostage is a feature to appeal to a more harcore niche base, but it is what it is.

My point is/was that given that, GGG can't be surprised when things go the way the go as the game grows. If you keep marketing to wider segments of players, does it not stand to reason these players might have different feedback and wants from the "normal", niche, PoE player?

Basically if GGG knows their game is more hardcore and niche focused, and they develop with that in mind, why do they keep trying to expand to a player they know in advance won't enjoy the game, or create friction in their desgin space? Hell they have gone silent the last 18 months, claiming the environment they created is toxic. Well no sh*t lol.

The main points of contention amongst the community are tied to QoL features, balance changes(nerfs) and meta swings, bloat, looting, and trade friction. These are all directly tied to how you play the game, casual vs no-life, and this gulf that exists between the two. Often times these groups are playing a different game and it's causing issues...for everyone.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

My point is/was that given that, GGG can't be surprised when things go the way the go as the game grows. If you keep marketing to wider segments of players, does it not stand to reason these players might have different feedback and wants from the "normal", niche, PoE player?

Basically if GGG knows their game is more hardcore and niche focused, and they develop with that in mind, why do they keep trying to expand to a player they know in advance won't enjoy the game, or create friction in their desgin space? Hell they have gone silent the last 18 months, claiming the environment they created is toxic. Well no sh*t lol.

I've asked you before, and I'll ask you again: Who is this "player" they are trying to expand to? You talked about advertising to a "casual crowd" before (or something in those lines). I'm not sure you gave a sufficient answer. Please enlighten me here. This seems like you're stretching something, just to use it as a negative.

Where are GGG advertising? How are they advertising? And how are they advertising to player they "know won't enjoy the game"? If you give me examples here, I can take your argument seriously. If not, well... The only thing you mentioned before, is Twitch. But we both know that Twitch is filled to the rim with hardcore gamers, as well as casual gamers, which is a pretty good searching ground for potential players that can dedicate some time to PoE.

Where should GGG advertise their product? Where should they find more potentially dedicated players? Should they just give up on advertising, because their product is "niche"?

And when it comes to GGG being surprised? Well, they try 'new' stuff all the time, sometimes more on the experimental side. Sometimes, it does backfire - and maybe they'll be surprised. And when controversial changes are being done, like the Harvest removal, 3.15 or other stuff, I'm VERY sure they are expecting some backlash (and they've even said so). But the times they are quick with a counter-change or reaction, is often when they see backlash/criticism from the... Lets call it "loyal" fanbase. Casual+ players.

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jomppanen wrote:

simply because game is impossible to get into for new players, also so many p2w elements, f*cking 100euros is required to play the game all bullsh*t currency and stashtabs for every league mechanic, adding new stuff before fixing old

You were new to it once. So were we all that still play.

Guess it's not so impossible.

Your 100 euros comment? Nah, not required.

Exactly zero p2w elements so again, nah.

I do agree that there are too many bullsh*te orbs though. They need to be seriously trimmed back.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

My point is/was that given that, GGG can't be surprised when things go the way the go as the game grows. If you keep marketing to wider segments of players, does it not stand to reason these players might have different feedback and wants from the "normal", niche, PoE player?

Basically if GGG knows their game is more hardcore and niche focused, and they develop with that in mind, why do they keep trying to expand to a player they know in advance won't enjoy the game, or create friction in their desgin space? Hell they have gone silent the last 18 months, claiming the environment they created is toxic. Well no sh*t lol.

I've asked you before, and I'll ask you again: Who is this "player" they are trying to expand to? You talked about advertising to a "casual crowd" before (or something in those lines). I'm not sure you gave a sufficient answer. Please enlighten me here. This seems like you're stretching something, just to use it as a negative.

Where are GGG advertising? How are they advertising? And how are they advertising to player they "know won't enjoy the game"? If you give me examples here, I can take your argument seriously. If not, well... The only thing you mentioned before, is Twitch. But we both know that Twitch is filled to the rim with hardcore gamers, as well as casual gamers, which is a pretty good searching ground for potential players that can dedicate some time to PoE.

Where should GGG advertise their product? Where should they find more potentially dedicated players? Should they just give up on advertising, because their product is "niche"?

And when it comes to GGG being surprised? Well, they try 'new' stuff all the time, sometimes more on the experimental side. Sometimes, it does backfire - and maybe they'll be surprised. And when controversial changes are being done, like the Harvest removal, 3.15 or other stuff, I'm VERY sure they are expecting some backlash (and they've even said so). But the times they are quick with a counter-change or reaction, is often when they see backlash/criticism from the... Lets call it "loyal" fanbase. Casual+ players.

I know we have discussed this prior, and for whatever reason you don't appear to believe that Twitch and targeted online journalism, that I mention, qualify as casual marketing? I mean of course it does? You honestly believe there are harcorde ARPG players that dont know about PoE they are trying to reach? Or what are you saying / disagreeing with? If you sponsor a variety streamer for example, one that doesn't play PoE often, or at all, what do you think their audience represents? (on average). The same goes for website article embargos and planned league marketing. These go to large publishers that report on all kinds of games and news. They are casting a wide net here, far beyond what their niche core gamer is.

I'm not saying that this concept is inherently negative. It becomes negative when you know this in advance as a developer, but don't make any efforts to accommodate for the variety of players you are bringing in by advertising. If growth was so important to GGG why don't they focus more on the new player experience, UI, QoL, explaining mechanics, and more.

And the community isn't that great either tbh. Often times casual or average players are met with hostility accusing them of wanting to "change the game" or "dumb it down", and/or asking them to just leave if they don't like it. f*ck me, I'm told the same thing all the time! I should just leave, or why should PoE change etc. I mean really is an alternative leveling thread on these forums really all that bad of an idea to be met with hostility? (Just an example)

I honestly don't understand the disconnect you are having here? It seems so obvious to me. GGG is inviting many types of players to the game, and are then alienating many of them by how the game is designed. The inevitable friction is something anyone could forsee happening.

That said GGG can do whatever they want. Im under no illusion the game isnt really desgined for me anymore. They have record numbers playing the game. I'm just highlighting why these record numbers also represent record levels of player division too. I think the crossover D4 numbers will show there is plenty of room to cater to more casual gamer without sacrificing the core principles that make PoE, PoE. (Which we have also disucssed). I wish they were more open-minded on some of these things.